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Unread 08-21-2010, 07:21 PM
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Default Panzer Command--Ostfront v. CMBB

The Mad Russian speaks on the subject in detail:

"The way I see it there are several differences between PCO and CMBB.

Although PC is always referred to as a CM clone that's not accurate. Unless silver is a clone of gold. They are related in the same way.

CM and PC are both games that are at the lower tactical level. The same as ASL and a myriad of other board wargames do. They are in the same genre.

If you are happy with CMBB and IT STILL PLAYS FOR YOU then there may be little reason for you to buy PCO. CMBB doesn't play on my new machine. It might if I were to invest the time to research the fixes.

But I'm not going to and here are my reasons for supporting PCO with my playing time instead of CMBB.

*CMBB won't play on my new machine. PCO does. That's the only one reason. Where is any ongoing support for CMBB? Has it been back coded to allow it to play on my machine like all of the PC series? Has it been upgraded like CMAK for Vista? If it has I haven't seen it. There is a total lack of support for CMBB at the current time that I'm aware of.

*PCO is the third installment in an ongoing series of games. CMBB is in a series seemingly no longer supported by it's parent company.

*PCO was made by wargamers with no limits on what we could make changes to. The original project was to be a simple patch. I would say it's anything but that. Matrix supported us even when the ride wasn't all that smooth. We are all gamers with CM backgrounds so we know what we liked from CM and what we didn't like. We also know what we like from CC and ASL and CC and Fireteam Leader, and....well you get the picture. We are wargamers. We want the best of them all rolled into one. We couldn't do everything we wanted in a free update but we went so far as to be offering you an entirely new gaming experience. I don't see CMBB doing any of those things.

Each gamer has their own likes and dislikes. This forum absolutely shows that. Our group is pretty diverse. From those wanting mostly a game to those wanting mostly a sim and those that want a blend. PCO is the result of our efforts. I think we did a really good job. The game plays great and has as much history and factual data as we could get under the hood in this amount of time.

This is the game we wanted to make and play!

*PCO can be made to do anything tactical. PCO was developed to be as wide open as possible. You can add any vehicle you like, we added the Maus so we know you can too, weapons system, squad, fireteam, nationality, gun, blast area, animation, texture, structure....ANYTHING.

You could do anytime period with the engine if you wanted. We could add Centurions or T-72's and it would simply be a matter of doing the mod and fixing the data files.

These are not just different skins over a set data base. The data base can be added to as well by modders.

*Game play doesn't have holes in it. All units respond the same. There is no such thing as a JS-2m refusing to fire at a King Tiger from ambush with flanking shot. There is no Dance of Death while entire platoons of tanks reverse into each other and then are shot to junk by the enemy.

*Game turns can be made to play however you like. Whether that is with or without a reaction phase. Whether you want 40/60/80 second turns.

*The map maker is quick and easy. For those that want it to be it can also make actual pieces of ground associated with battles. Actual height and terrain maps can be generated from satellite mapping or you can use whatever other sources you like.

* A full editor which can include the ability to use any structure ever made. You can make the Reichstag and put it in a scenario if you like. Water, both still and moving is differentiated, weather, fog, time of day, lighting conditions, shadows, etc. is all under your control.

Okay then, enough about the box credential differences.

Let's move on to game play.

CMBB and PCO play fairly similar with some very important distinctions.

*PCO has had the entire orders structure reworked. The orders structure is leader based with the ability to micro manage if that's what you want. I normally go through an entire Bn OOB to give orders in about 10 minutes. Even if I have to give specific orders to someone that is quick and easy. I can click on the unit and then move anywhere on the map and give the orders I want. I don't have to start at the unit and go outward from there losing my way and starting over. This is a very handy item and saves lots of time when you are issuing orders.

PCO has formations in the orders selections such as bounding overwatch and charge. These are nationality specific.

* PCO has unit ID coins that are fully functional. I get tremendously more information from a PCO ID coin that I do from a CMBB ID label.

In PCO the ID coins can be modded to look like anything you want. You want NATO symbols to show on them you can do that. You want Red Star/Black Cross you can do that too.

The ID coins are fully functional in regards to issuing orders as well. Click on the ID coin and the orders menu comes up. You can the issue orders without ever having seen the actual unit.

The ID coins for enemy units can be targeted. Again, without ever actually seeing the enemy unit.

The ID coins show if a vehicle is buttoned or unbuttoned.

They show if the unit is a leader, a replacement leader or a normal unit member.

*Combat resolution is based on ballistics and accuracy. Not much that you would notice different in game play between the two. As much actual known data for the weaponry we could get went into the combat engine.

* Camera angles and moving around the map is much easier in PCO.

* There is a hot key for everything in PCO. The interface is fast and easy.

* You can turn a tremendous number of options on or off in PCO. In all areas. That includes the map maker, scenario editor, random scenario/campaign editors and game play.

* PCO has all the same immersion factors that CMBB did. The fighting can be extremely intense.

*Artillery has been redone and is a more accurate model now. It doesn't just fire non stop as it does in CMBB until you run out of ammo. It fires for a period until the mission is over and you retarget. Artillery requires a communication link between a leader and the artillery unit.

*PCO has had each unit in the game researched to supply a time line for the type of ammunition it can use. If APCR wasn't available in a particular time frame it's not in the game for you. Some are more accurate at longer ranges than others. You can find all that in the unit ID that is available during game play if you need it.

* Something I didn't think was going to make much difference to me when we started is the graphics of the game. We have actual aircraft and not just shadows in the game. It makes a tremendous difference to see them doing the attack and watch the bombs falling away and hitting. But not just aircraft. All the other models as well.

* Sound has been completely redone. It's all size and distance appropriate.

* Where is the Borg? There is not much Borg spotting in PCO. No computer game is going to do away with some form of Borg spotting at a squad level model. What PCO does is limit what can be seen from each unit. If you physically can't see it then it's not represented on the map at all when you give orders to your unit. You can see all units that your forces can see when you click on the map to determine units in contact and what would be reported to you as the commander but each unit can only physically see what they have an LOS to.

*Each unit/vehicle was researched so that they are as accurate to original as possible. There are no holes in the OOB that we are aware of. No Super Stug's that can't be killed. Even if there are and we didn't find them any modder can fix that issue by redoing the data table for that vehicle.

Before we go there, all data for all aspects of the game must match up or the scenario won't play. Sorry, I just knew where you were going with your next rant mode turned on.....

*PBEM - TCP/IP. Using Drop Box you can play PCO as a combination of PBEM and TCP/IP without any connections through your ISP or any server. This is quick and easy and the turns can be done either back to back as in TCP/IP or saved for later as in PBEM. This is how I play most often and this is great!


Wrap it all up together and I much prefer to play PCO. I have CMBB on an old XP machine. I haven't played CMBB since before thanksgiving of last year. I've been a pretty active member of the CM community to that point. Now I'm not. I much prefer the gameplay of PCO to CMBB.

I could still be over doing things with CMAK and wondering when BFC will update CMBB so my new machine will play it. Instead I've joined this team. I can't imagine anyone seeing that list of changes we made and not realize just how much work we put into this.

If you have your doubts, then wait. There will be those that will buy it and reviews will come out. There will be ladders and tournaments started using PCO. You can watch those and see if you find the same kind of support and enthusiasm you're looking for.

I waited until PCK before becoming a part of the team because I wanted to see some things before I went any further myself. So, I fully understand. Very soon you won't have to take our word for it. Others will be telling you as well.

Only you will know if PCO is for you. I just know it's for me.

Good Hunting.

MR"

Link to post #128 here:

http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthre...59#post1305159
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Unread 08-21-2010, 11:37 PM
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It sounds good but two things will happen for this game just like CM:N (if it is ever brought to light).
1. Players will go- eh, just another game and it will die.
or
2. Players will say- wow, this is what CM should have been and it will gain a huge following.

If it's a good game and players like it I'll probably buy it for the editor and make maps & scenarios.
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Unread 08-23-2010, 11:11 PM
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Anyone have any comments on the upcoming PC-O?

Whats your take on being a better play than CM:N?

I was surprised that Mad Russian has dropped CM and switched to PC, he was a huge CMx1 supporter, runs a CM scenario site & made dozens of scenarios. That says a lot to me about what he thinks of PC-O.
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Unread 08-24-2010, 01:51 PM
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These fellas must think alot of PC to drop the CM series.

I dont know anything of the PC series. I remember seeing screens back when it first was ready to come out and that was it.

As far as guys dropping out of CM, im suprised it hasnt happened more sooner, even the diehards who have their own websites and who are modders. That being said I agree with you Kerry with the notion that there probably is alot going for PC if guys like Mad Russian are into it.

I havent played anything on the CPU since 07. I need an upgrade and I have been waiting for a game to come along to justify the expenditure. I am on extremely low budget and it would take me probably the better part of a year to save up for a new CPU. So i havent wanted to buy one and have it be out of date again in two years waiting for something to come along, so id just wait til the game came out, then id upgrade.
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Unread 11-04-2010, 12:23 PM
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After watching the videos & reading up on this I'm leaning to get PC-O when it comes out. I'm not sure when CM:N will arrive but it will have to get very high marks from players for me to eventually buy it.

Do you guys see anything about Pc-O to not want to buy it?
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Unread 11-04-2010, 02:44 PM
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It's a no brainer for me, Kerry. I already own PC:K--I'll be getting it for no extra cost.

Even if you end up being lukewarm on the the final result, buying PC:O will help fund the full upgrade of the series (which is under new ownership and whose development team features some CM x 1 all stars).
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Unread 11-04-2010, 03:52 PM
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I have the Kharkov game but havent delved into it very much.
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Unread 11-05-2010, 02:45 PM
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I still think that all the "goodies" that will be in PC-O shocked BFC & they have to backpedal fast so they can re-develope & get back in the game.
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Unread 11-05-2010, 03:03 PM
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I think that BF is very thankful that PC will continue being on the Eastern Front--at least for the short term.
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Unread 11-06-2010, 04:23 PM
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Just won a copy of Ost Front through a model build off sponsored by Matrix....should be receiving my copy as soon as its released!.....this was my winning enrty:







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