What are you playing right now?

[Full Monty]

Originally Posted by KG_Soldier

CMAK meeting engagement with "Monty" in the freaking desert in July for goodness sake; my boys are already thirsty. I see an M3, so hopefully Bogart will put a round into our dry well (And no Monty, the right hook by the Americans in Normandy was not your idea!). :)

Let's not even go there

[KG_Soldier]

Oh PLEASE, let's.

[KG_Soldier]

Now, let me preface this by saying Monty (the real one) certainly played a part in the success of Cobra and at Falaise. However, his assertion (after the war) that it was his plan all along (before the invasion) to pin the Germans at Caen while the Americans flanked and pinned them, as is what happened, is downright silly. He certainly didn't intend to run into the tenacious 12th SS. He did adapt to the situation on hand as well as anyone could, which is the sign of a good commander. I think his comments after the war are a result of bitter feelings between the Americans and British over Normandy because of the causualties both suffered, quite understandable each would blame the other a bit. And Monty got more than his fair share of criticism about his handling of a monumental task.

[KG_Soldier]

Test.........

[Full Monty]

Originally Posted by KG_Soldier

Now, let me preface this by saying Monty (the real one) certainly played a part in the success of Cobra and at Falaise. However, his assertion (after the war) that it was his plan all along (before the invasion) to pin the Germans at Caen while the Americans flanked and pinned them, as is what happened, is downright silly. He certainly didn't intend to run into the tenacious 12th SS. He did adapt to the situation on hand as well as anyone could, which is the sign of a good commander. I think his comments after the war are a result of bitter feelings between the Americans and British over Normandy because of the causualties both suffered, quite understandable each would blame the other a bit. And Monty got more than his fair share of criticism about his handling of a monumental task.

Hmmmm. According to Miles Dempsey (Cdr 2nd Army) and the planning documents it was always Montgomery's intention to draw the Germans onto the Eastern part of the front whilst the breakout would come in the West. This I draw from 'Brute Force' by John Ellis and the author has little time for Montgomery as a commander so if the case was otherwise I'm sure he would draw attention to it. Of course Monty's method of achieving this is open to question as is his pronouncements of success after operations such as Goodwood and Epsom. Nevertheless, he would have been well aware of what heavy units the Germans had in France and where they were stationed. So he would have expected to run into all the SS panzer units at some stage, preferably in front of the British/Canadian armies. Now what would be silly would have been if Monty had claimed 'Cobra' was his plan

[KG_Soldier]

I agree that Monty intended to tie down German forces and breakout to the East. However, his original plan was to use British Armor for the breakout -- as then Wing Commander Scarman (Tedders personel assistant) said,

"It is true that there was a plan which showed the Americans coming up on the right towards the Seine while they [the British] swung at Caen. But that is far different from the decision to strike out on the right and pull quickly around. Monty undoubtedly intended to start the breakout on his front, and then let the Americans come around as they could. He intended at first for Patton to spend his time cleaning up the few Germans left in Brittany."

From Carlo D'este's Decision in Normandy

So while I agree he intended to tie the Germans down and breakout on the right, I think he intended to do it with the British Army. The defensive position of the German Army for the first several weeks of Normandy was very strong, and the British armored and infantry divisions (through no fault of their own) just were'nt strong enough to break them.

My only problem with Monty (besides his overstated gains in obvious setbacks as you mentioned) is his claim after the war he always intended to use the Americans as the MAIN flanking force.

I think Monty was in an incredibly difficult position trying to assault the German line and did the best he could, but that's still a position easily criticised (no matter which general was in charge).

[Full Monty]

Well, those gentlemen can have their opinions. But this comes from the planning document drawn up on 7th May 1944

[The] aim [is] to contain the maximum enemy forces facing the Eastern flank of the bridgehead, and to thrust rapidly towards Rennes.

Seems to be pretty categorical.

And from Dempsey, recalling a planning conference, at which ...

Monty stressed the fact that after the immediate reserves had been drawn in all German reserves would arrive at the battle from the East and Southeast, thus to get across to the American sector of the bridgehead, they would have to pass across the British front around Caen. It was my job to make sure they didn't move across, that they were kept fully occupied fighting us in the Caen sector.

Both from Ellis pp. 373-4

Now I have no doubt that Monty would have loved to have broken through with the British forces under his command rather than the American. I also have no doubt that he had a plan for this too (Any good commander would have something to cover all contingencies) but it would have been secondary to the main plan.

Looking through John Terraine's 'The Right of the Line' he talks about Montgomery 'switching the main affort over to Bradley's sector' after 'Charnwood' but he gives no indication of Monty's original orders. It speculates on whether Brooke and Churchill would have accepted British troops being involved in a battle of attrition when the army was getting into a manpower crisis. Then again the original plan probably wouldn't have envisaged a battle lasting over two months so I'm not sure of the validity of Terraine's comments.

What I would accept (and Ellis points this out) is that like any other high-level commander Monty would outline his intentions in a manner that would allow him to consider several options without appearing to change his mind. Ellis certainly contradicts Scarman and d'Este just seems to be speculating. I re-read d'Este's article over at ACG hoping he'd offer some more insights into Monty's plans for Normandy but regrettably he chose not to cover that particular battle in any detail.

[KG_Jag]

Guys this is an interesting discussion, but hasn't it gone a bit off point?

[KG_AGCent]

What's life without the occaisional thread hijacking.

[KG_Panzerschreck]

1. Thor's Lost Victories Campaign, and yes Mark we are raping you.
2. The Steel Triad, SZO Tourney
3. CMBB game vrs Swampy. playing the same battle as the top 16 tourney players are playing, the slugfest over the factories and the old fortress.
4. a '43 tank match vrs Scipio thats on hold for the time being.
5. Trying to teach my 14 yr. old nephew how to play Avalon Hill's "Up Front - The Squad Leader Card Game"