Captured Soviet Armor?

[KG_Panzerschreck]

Two pics of captured KV-2's -





A captured SU-85 -

[Palantir]

Nice pictures!

They must have been really desperate to have converted a T-34 into a AA platform... At first that makes me think that they captured a lot of T-34's to have done that. But then, maybe the turret was just completely destroyed on that one so the swap was easier.

CREWS:
Whats the opinion of who the Germans would have crewed those captured tanks with? Would new guys get them or an experienced crew? I'm thinking more of a good Soviet tank = getting a good Pz tank crew. A light Soviet tank = a light Pz tank crew, etc.

In an ID would there be "old" trained Pz tank crews laying around or would some INF guys jump in?

[KG_Cloghaun]

Would you say from your reading that in the later stages of the war if a unit captured a Soviet tank & they got it running they just used it themselves?

Yes, that would be my educated guess, having read various late war accounts. TOE's became less & less accurate in the final months of the war as you can imagine, but the recurring "late-war" theme for ground forces, especially for the Wehrmacht (since most new equipment went to either SS divisions or stupidly to newly formed divisions), was to scavenge for any usable weapons. This included, but was not limited to, armor, transport vehicles, small arms & the wide use of captured artillery & ATG guns.

[KG_ThorsHammer]

2 examples in blue during the same action at seelow.

Manteuffel had another piece of luck on his side. The 5th SS Division Wiking, supplemented by the 28th SS Division Wallonien and a loose confederation of stragglers, showed up, bringing several captured Soviet field guns and two T-34s. And yet another surprise awaited Konev: Manteuffel had secured heavy artillery from the 11th SS Panzergrenadier Division Nordland and the 23rd SS Division Nederland. All four divisions combined numbered less than one division at full strength, however, due to heavy combat losses.

As the morning of April 10, 1945, dawned, the German troops--tired, hungry and unable to sleep--were stirred by the distant sound of engines. Soon the sound of an even more terrible weapon broke the stillness. Konev had brought up the artillery.

The first 10 minutes of the ensuing barrage tore up the new minefield and knocked out two of the 88mms and five of the 75mms. One of the captured T-34s was destroyed, and dozens of men were screaming in pain from shrapnel wounds. The medics were stretched too thin to be effective, and wounded gunners could only wait in their improvised dugouts. Men were lifted into the air by the Soviet 152mm rounds, each of which was potentially lethal within 150 meters and left a crater a meter deep. Major Gottlieb lost half his men during the heavy barrage, which lasted nearly 30 minutes. Falkenhahn and his men fared better; they ran forward and began closing with the enemy tanks, which were advancing under the carpet of death.

The SS men destroyed more than a dozen T-34s and a JS-1 heavy tank, then crawled under them for protection. At about 0645 the barrage was lifted, and the bulk of the Soviet armor raced forward to take advantage of the confusion. They ran right into a German artillery barrage, called in as soon as the Soviet artillery stopped. Soviet tanks and infantry were shredded by the creeping fire. Konev saw 30 percent of his unit's total strength die on the vine in front of his eyes.

The Soviets, however, did gain one advantage: The Germans were forced to pull back even farther. Several German volunteers stayed behind in shallow depressions, armed with Panzerfausts. Those men would fire into the advancing Soviets, sacrificing themselves for their compatriots. The wounded were the most likely to volunteer since they were in no shape to go anywhere, and there was no place for them to retreat to anyway.

The Soviets attacked again at 0915. Konev had told his subordinate commanders that should any of them survive the next assault without driving the Germans from the heights, they would be shot for cowardice. Battalion commanders led from the rear with their guns pointed at the backs of their men. German machine-gunners had a field day. The Soviets would have suffered even more casualties had the Germans not been running out of ammunition. Since sunrise, another 400 Germans had died at their forward positions. Behind them lay another 60 disabled Soviet tanks and nearly 2,000 dead and wounded Soviet troops.

Falkenhahn and his men accounted for 13 tanks. Gottlieb could boast 18, three of them destroyed by the major single-handedly. German troops too badly mauled to survive were shot so that they would not fall into Soviet hands.

Manteuffel knew that without reinforcements and armor support, his defense would collapse regardless of how many Soviets his men killed. Air support was welcomed yet ineffective. The artillery was sorely needed, yet it, too, proved to be too little, too late. The small arms ammunition was gone, and the anti-tank guns were down to their last rounds. Could it get any worse?

Konev was wondering the same thing at that juncture. He had suffered a total of 4,000 killed, with nearly 300 tanks destroyed, and he had advanced only two kilometers in three days. He decided that it was time to commit his reserves, two tank divisions and three infantry regiments. The Soviet commander ordered his artillery to fire smoke shells to conceal the advance, and at 1050 the order was given to move forward.

Manteuffel instructed the individual commanders to use their own initiative. Falkenhahn and his newly reinforced company (now numbering close to 90 men) were resupplied by trucks carrying magnetic mines and Panzerfausts. Small-arms ammunition was still on the way, along with shells for the anti-tank guns. Although he was only 23, Falkenhahn had served previously with the Fallschirmjäger (paratroops) at Fort Eban Emael, Norway and Crete before transferring to the army and later the SS. He had three years of Eastern Front experience, and the Knights Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords testified to his fighting skill.

Falkenhahn ordered his men to engage the enemy tanks with rockets, while another group used the smoke as concealment to run close to the tanks and hurl mines at them. Loud cheers rose from the ranks as the Germans captured Soviet armor. Although many of the tanks would not roll, the Germans operated their main guns, firing on the advancing Soviets. The tanks that could still be driven were taken back to the German positions and used as supplemental anti-tank pieces.

this is from a good site and you can read the full text of this here
http://zhukov.mitsi.com/Seelow.htm

[KG_Cloghaun]

CREWS:
Whats the opinion of who the Germans would have crewed those captured tanks with? Would new guys get them or an experienced crew? I'm thinking more of a good Soviet tank = getting a good Pz tank crew. A light Soviet tank = a light Pz tank crew, etc.

I've read many books that have 1st person accounts about panzer crewmen- here are some of my favorites:

Panzer Aces I & II
The Combat History of schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503
The Combat History of schwere Panzer-Abteilung 507
History of Panzerkorps Grossdeutschland Vol. I, II & III
Das Riech Vol I, II & III
Like a Cliff in the Ocean: The History of the 3. SS-Panzer-Division "Totenkopf"
Drama Between Budapest & Vienna
7,000 Kilometers in a Sturmgeschutz
The Leibstandarte Vol I
The Tiger Project Vol I & II
Last Victory in Russia: The SS-Panzerkorps and Manstein's Kharkov Counteroffensive Feb-Mar 1943

- What I conclude from these books is that typically Tiger Abt.'s took the cream of the crop & at the end of the war it still held true (the best of the worst). You would rarely find a "veteran" tanker not in a Tiger, Panther or to a lesser extent, some of the newer model tank destroyers, since you would rarely find a "veteran" tanker alive, period. Veteran accounts have these crews losing their tanks & being refitted with new ones or waiting for repairs. A couple of instances I've read had some crews in "heat of battle" situations that through victim of circumstance, they liberated a Russian tank to escape a situation, but that's about it.

[Palantir]

Thanks guys, a wealth of information!

It was definetly a, "do whatever you could with whatever you had on hand" situation at the later stages.

[KG_Jag]

Kerry, I found this in the Schiffer publication Russian T-34 Battle Tank by Horst Scheibert (1992):

"With the great numbers of destroyed and captured T-34's--especially form 1941 to 1943--it was only natural that many units of the German army filled their gaps with them. the tank and antitank units in particular utilized them, but so did the grenadiers, in the form of whole companies and platoons, but also as individual tanks. They all lasted as long as ammunition and spare parts were available--usually only a couple months--and always were used on the initiative of the troops. Whole units were never officially equipped with captured T-34 tanks.

Because of its 'hostile' silhouette, its crews were often more or less a suicide squad in poor visibility. The German crosses therefore painted on them considerably larger than on German tanks.

[Palantir]

The "suicide" comment makes me wonder if it wasn't the "new guys" who got assigned to those captured tanks!

[KG_Panzerschreck]

Originally Posted by Palantir

The "suicide" comment makes me wonder if it wasn't the "new guys" who got assigned to those captured tanks!

Or it could be that the guy has no idea what he's talking about either. I dont mean that i do either, its just when you read a statement like that you can tell it was put in there for shock value moreso than historical accuracy. It is very true that some guys using captured Russian tanks did get taken out by accident by units operating next to them in a case of mistaken identity but to go so far as calling them "Suicide Squads", well thats a bit too much IMHO.